“why do you think there used to be only very limited prim tools in SL from the very beginning until the very recent addition of sculpties?’

Simple. Linden Lab is not a 3D development company. That particular expertise did not until relatively recently, afaik, exist within the company. They outsourced the 3D toolset work.

“why do you think there wasnt the ability to import any mesh from the very beginning?”

Simple. Prim data is lightweight. Streaming/compression is Rosedale’s strength. From what I understand they wanted 3D which didn’t incur significant bandwidth. CAD-style parametric/procedural models arguably do this more efficiently than mesh data (note that “Spore” will be similar in this regard).

“why do you think there are just a certain amount of prims possible in a sim?”

According to things I read some time back, prims were limited not because of their own resource requirements, but because more prims potentially meant more textures, and *those* were the biggest cause of concern.

The official forums have been pretty badly gutted, but you might find some preserved references for how LL made some decisions and, if true, it wasn’t always what one might expect.

Consequently, “processing power” is not *the* answer. It’s a part of a bigger answer that includes streaming the 3Ddata, streaming the texture data, aso.

“The more prims there are, the more vertices/faces/polygons they have the bigger is the rendering weight.”

But rendering weight is a client issue. It’s local. And it can be dialed down locally. It’s already done this way. But Linden Lab can’t really control the textures attached to those prims. They get streamed to everyone regardless. And that gets to the issue I mention above. It’s also related to the “prim economy” in that it’s not purely a tech issue but also a social issue.

btw, the consultant who coded the modeling tools offered to add more capabilities during early development (and even relatively recently, according to his blog). Linden Lab declined, apparently. For what reason I don’t know. However, “limited” prim tools != limitations on vertices. An extruded square is still a six-sided cube in the end, and an extruded pentagon would only be seven. A twisted, tapering toroid is a bigger hit than an extruded I-beam.

Of interest: someone recently pointed out on their blog that the 3D engine was subdividing the flat sides of a cube into not two triangles but eighteen! I’ve not verified what that’s all about, but it suggests to me that the LOD system may be doing some odd things. LL is probably aware of this but it’s probably not high on their priority list since what’s streamed won’t change.

“Q. Sculpted prims are limited to 32×32 vertices at their highest resolution. If I’ve uploaded a 256×256 sculpt map, how can I get the sculpted prim to show that detail?

* You cannot. Currently in Second Life, we use the “prim economy” to prevent builders from “stealing” rendering resources from each other. Each region is allowed 15,000 prims, each of which may have 1024 vertices. These resources are divided proportionally amongst the region’s landowners. This balance works well with the current state of rendering hardware. There are no plans to increase these numbers in the near future. “

“Q. Sculpted prims are limited to 32×32 vertices at their highest resolution. If I’ve uploaded a 256×256 sculpt map, how can I get the sculpted prim to show that detail?

* You cannot. Currently in Second Life, we use the “prim economy” to prevent builders from “stealing” rendering resources from each other. Each region is allowed 15,000 prims, each of which may have 1024 vertices. These resources are divided proportionally amongst the region’s landowners. This balance works well with the current state of rendering hardware. There are no plans to increase these numbers in the near future. “

why do you think there used to be only very limited prim tools in SL from the very beginning until the very recent addition of sculpties? Why do you think the existing sculpties are limited to 32×32 vertices mesh as their highest possible resolution? why do you think there wasnt the ability to import any mesh from the very beginning? why do you think there are just a certain amount of prims possible in a sim? i guess the answer would be: processing power. The more prims there are, the more vertices/faces/polygons they have the bigger is the rendering weight.
You all know how unstable and full of all kind of problems SL is always used to be. So i’m afraid, until they find ways to make it more stable and run smoothly with the tools we have right now, we wont see any changes any time soon: neigther 3 extra “simple” add-on tools (which btw could result in possibility to have endless amount of vertices/faces per object!) nor arbitrary meshes support. It would just mean creating even more problems for themselves while they cannot even cope with the existing ones!
I’m just trying to be realistic here, I myself have just learn how to achieve a “decent” quality of sculpties from my detailed max models and I’m endlessly thankful to those who make those “grass roots projects” possible and even downloadable free of charge! And I will gladly vote for any extra modeling tool, be it simple chamfer or a mesh importer. I just don’t believe it will be there any time soon.

To my knowledge the inworld tool developed internally by LL has not been released, so that person is almost certainly uploading anims. If you’re not familiar with the LL tool, I’d suggest doing a search. btw, it’s said to have the potential to kill off the animation industry inside SL since it makes creating individual custom anims so easy. Might want to alert your acquaintance.

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“As for charging $20 an upload well preposturous is the first word that comes to mind.”

Fair enough. And “predisposed to in-the-box thinking” is what comes to mind when I read your comments. To each their own.

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“I am talking about adding three tools to the modeling ability of the tool set. They already have the basis of those tools in the tool kit. Sven, your solution would cost more in time and money then it is worth.”

Based on what analysis and evidence do you base your factual claim? Or is it just an opinion?

As to cost? Cost to whom? Linden Lab? Worth? Worth to whom? You?

I suppose it didn’t occur to you that someone *outside* LL might add functionality all on their own. For free. For example, Georgia Tech’s recent modifications to the client will, afaik, be made available to everyone. That is, iirc, mentioned in their video.

And of course, if/when the back-end goes open source, we should all *expect* additional applications and implementations. Isn’t that what an open API is for? Isn’t that the big news around Facebook’s 3rd party devs (esp the Scrabulous guys today)? Isn’t that why 3DS Max’s plug-in capabilities were so popular back in the early 90’s? Extending and/or modifying the core application? Maybe SL shouldn’t have *any* tools in the core client and people should be able to add plug-in modules as needed. That would simplify the oft-cited confusing UI issue, no?

Excuse me if I’m not limiting myself to three little things.

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“hiring someone or even a team of someones just to certify uploads? Dude! Do the math. Whats the final cost if you pay a five person team for this job? Hourly, benefits, 401k? Seriously, why?”

Ask Makena/There. They’ve been doing it for years.

I made the point of calling out Linden Lab’s effective ownership of Second Life. So long as SL is *not* the internet - is a self-contained virtual world - an option might be feasible because they do, in fact, control the space. Thus, if the upload cost for a mesh was… say… US$1000, they’d probably not have to hire *anyone*. But hey, at least the option is there, and that’s a good thing afaic.

In addition consider that many of the problems with SL seem to be asset-related. Certainly seems like it’s already in need of some rethinking (and maybe they’re already decided; again, Cory O. in an interview already said a hybrid model system was inevitable).

In the end, perhaps LL will run two grids: one that’s basically what you have now and another that they restrict in the way I’m suggesting they could. Furthermore, perhaps 3rd parties will eventually either completely do away with uploading OR allow any & all uploading. We’ll see.

The internet allows anything and everything to be uploaded so if Rosedale’s goal is for his tech to *become* the new 3D internet, then limits *will* go away in the core application. Thus your initial problem comes back to haunt you anyway, doesn’t it?

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“I think you guys are on some heavy drugs.”

And I think you’ll enjoy the crow… without salt.

While you’re munching away, please give a little thought to the possibilities instead of casually dismissing any discussion of anything that seems on the surface to be “preposturous”.

Not sure what you mean by rolling out the inworld animation tool, Sven, I know someone now who does poses and animations in world I just dont recall the name of the app. As for charging $20 an upload well preposturous is the first word that comes to mind. I am talking about adding three tools to the modeling ability of the tool set. They already have the basis of those tools in the tool kit. Sven, your solution would cost more in time and money then it is worth. Right now the SL tool kit isn’t too far off from similar and less user friendly development kits like UnrealEdit and hiring someone or even a team of someones just to certify uploads? Dude! Do the math. Whats the final cost if you pay a five person team for this job? Hourly, benefits, 401k? Seriously, why? When an exisiting team of code monkeys can just work out how to add three measely tools to SL. I think you guys are on some heavy drugs.

“A new feature that truly differentiates Novoking from SL and Hipihi is that it allows users to upload their own content created in Photoshop, 3DMax and Maya. So besides aiming for just the ‘newbies’ the developers at Novoking have left plenty of room for the more experienced content creators too.” - http://mastersofmedia.hum.uva.nl/2007/10/24/virtual-worlds-in-modern-china

First off, just like textures, a cost could be associated with uploading a mesh file. The $10L is so trivial it’s essentially non-existent. People routinely ask for and receive that amount from other avatars when asked “You got $10L so I can upload a photo?” It’s not a barrier.

Now, if the cost weren’t trivial, things change. First you decrease the amount of uploads. Second, the value in uploading has to offset the cost. Maybe someone just *really* wants their model uploaded so they can show it off because at, say US$20/upload it’s no longer trivial.

Now, that puts it in the range of a “necessary recoverable”, and that probably means sales. Except the sales process might not be the same as in-world models. Linden Lab *could* tag uploaded meshes so that they don’t Copy (after all, they once claimed they would incorporate some kind of system to help resolve IP disputes).

But No Copy affects the legit folks as well. Now the system has shifted… perhaps too far. So how to bring it back a bit for the legitimate types who want to sell their 3D? Well, it’s Linden Lab’s servers, so it seems they could either vet the uploads themselves or hire someone else to “certify” not just authenticity but RL information. That way, when someone uploads a ripped model, there’s a database on-hand for comparison and accountability purposes. Thus, someone wanting to upload a model pays their $20 and then has to be vetted in order to sell it; and if they’re ripping someone off they lose the money and the account as well as being potentially sued.

That’s top of my head, but I think it’s apparent something *could* be accommodated. Cory O. mentioned during one interview I read that a hybrid model environment would eventually be needed. And there is *already* a mix so I think it’s the control issues that are among the bigger ones with which they need to deal.

On the other hand, for a few years now I’ve been wanting to see such a system apply to *all* uploads. That would mean the client would also have a built-in set of graphics tools (e.g. Illustrator/Photoshop replacements). They already have some kind of inworld animation system tool (though when it’ll be rolled out, who knows). And if they went to procedural textures they could solve a lot of storage issues on that count. In addition, they could also both improve the parametric modeling tools as well as incorporate some mesh tools.

But all of this is a ways off, I’m afraid. Hope I’m wrong, but not holding my breath.

Don’t get me wrong I am not against the idea but there are valid arguments against it and if you can show me a virtual world which is allowing common types of meshs to be imported, I will eat crow without salt. But if you want to increase the quality of content 100x then the answer is a better tool box not file portability. Granted that is my opinion based on what would be easier to accomplish. Basically I think we are more likely to the SL tool kit expand before they allow the import of other file types.

That being said, go try SL prims I forget the URL but you can google it and it is very user friendly.